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October 20, 2018, 01:36:19 PM
News: Greg Bragg and the 12 grabbs his 5th consecutive podium and first class win! Congrats Greg and the GB Racing Team!

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Author Topic: Fuel System  (Read 1445 times)

Full Member
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Posts: 163
Lets talk fuel system here, as everyone knows im having issues. 

1.  Louis, who is EXTREMELY knowledgable about everything TL says, run external pumps and a return style fuel rail.

2.  Wiks says running a return from the rail is simply gathering heat from the motor and bringing it back to the tank, and this makes sense to me.  He suggests puting the regulator in back and dead head into the rail.  Exactly how all of the 10 cars are setup.  And we know those run wide open basically all the time.

Im thinking:

1.  Run external fuel pumps like Louis suggested.
2.  Dead head the fuel rail like wiks suggested, but center tap it to allow equal fuel to all injectors solving the problem that made TL's run return lines to begin with.
3.  Route a forced air vent to push air down on the fuel rail, so it stays cool.

Call me crazy, but if the fuel is kept cool, and fuel flow is steady to the injectors, there is no reason we shouldn't be able to run 91 fuel all day.

I find it very interesting and fun to solve these kind of issues...so I don't mind experimenting, but preferably not during a race and not costing me a motor!


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Trophylite #6013
Dunarri
wildpowersports.com
wildscooterparts.com
coolermods.com
   

Sr. Member
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Posts: 308
Ok John, here is how we did the Elite truck after issues at 2016 V2R(Fuel system), issues at 2016 BWDC(fuel system) and DNF 2017 Parker 425(fuel system).....I kinda knew in my head the way I thought it should be done....or what made the most sense, and after talking to guys in the industry that I respect their knowledge, this is how we ran our system and why.......and after this install, not one single fuel related issue! Dual Bosch pumps as close to the tank as possible and as low(in relation to the tank) as possible. Pre pump filter and post pump filter before the regulator with the return line off of the regulator back to the tank. Two HUGE factors to incorporate into this equation are 1)No questions asked, run the Holley Hydromat!!!! 2) Feed lines to the pumps exit the bottom of the cell and are -10 hoses!!!!! These pumps are not meant to suck, so use gravity to your benefit and feed the pumps the fuel. In my mind, all your are doing is heating the fuel by feeding it to the HOT rail then returning it back to the tank, that is why we opted to run the return line off of the regulator. Let me know if you have any other questions John!
   

Jr. Member
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Posts: 73
Tony pretty much lined out a solid setup and I agree. Ours is close, pre/post filters.etc.
Our fuel rail is center fed, but our "post" filter handles the pressure regulation, and fuel return-keeps the return line short and it never gets exposed to the higher temps of the motor. Same basic fuel setup as a stock Corvette, just modified x2.
   

Full Member
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Posts: 163
Thanks OFT and Tony!  Pretty much the setup I was thinking (Almost forgot about the hydromat).  Will do it exactly this way.

Its funny, as much issues as we have had i still have had about the most amazing time ever racing this truck and cant wait till the next one!

--John


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Trophylite #6013
Dunarri
wildpowersports.com
wildscooterparts.com
coolermods.com
   

Sr. Member
****

Posts: 308
We used two of the Bosch 61-979 fuel pumps and the Holley 16-109 Hydramat. The Hydramat has three outlets, we capped the one and ran two feed lines...one to each pre filter and pump. Hope this helps you guys out!!
   
Full Member
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Posts: 130
John that truck has 5k race miles on it w no issues relating to vapor lock or lean out. If you did not lose fuel pressure on the gauge at Parker you did not have a fuel pump related issue. That gauge reads pressure right at the fuel rail.
The temp issue around the fuel rail has been beaten to death. It is this simple. Go rent a GM 4 cylinder 2.4 powered car.
Drive it in 110 Nevada heat up hill as with as much load on it as possible,5 fat girls a case of sparkling wine.
w asphalt temps of 130-150 , under hood temps of who knows but 180 would be easy to imagine .
Cat converter ,exhaust running right next to the fuel tank , fuel tank a few inches above the hot asphalt. 87 octane fuel ,
Do you think it will overheat ? do you think it will vapor lock ?  nope that old fat girl hauler will just keep going.
TL trucks get a ton more cool air around everything except AC up a short skirt :) 
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 39
John that truck has 5k race miles on it w no issues relating to vapor lock or lean out. If you did not lose fuel pressure on the gauge at Parker you did not have a fuel pump related issue. That gauge reads pressure right at the fuel rail.
The temp issue around the fuel rail has been beaten to death. It is this simple. Go rent a GM 4 cylinder 2.4 powered car.
Drive it in 110 Nevada heat up hill as with as much load on it as possible,5 fat girls a case of sparkling wine.
w asphalt temps of 130-150 , under hood temps of who knows but 180 would be easy to imagine .
Cat converter ,exhaust running right next to the fuel tank , fuel tank a few inches above the hot asphalt. 87 octane fuel ,
Do you think it will overheat ? do you think it will vapor lock ?  nope that old fat girl hauler will just keep going.
TL trucks get a ton more cool air around everything except AC up a short skirt :)

You mean that truck isn't brand new? Just kidding lol what fuel do you run? Maybe vapor lock issues if you run just pump gas. We run the vp eco 96 fuel.
   

Full Member
***

Posts: 163
Agreed russ, this is what I keep telling people at the races, but for some reason they think vapor lock is an issue!  Who knows what caused it, but it will not happen again!

John that truck has 5k race miles on it w no issues relating to vapor lock or lean out. If you did not lose fuel pressure on the gauge at Parker you did not have a fuel pump related issue. That gauge reads pressure right at the fuel rail.
The temp issue around the fuel rail has been beaten to death. It is this simple. Go rent a GM 4 cylinder 2.4 powered car.
Drive it in 110 Nevada heat up hill as with as much load on it as possible,5 fat girls a case of sparkling wine.
w asphalt temps of 130-150 , under hood temps of who knows but 180 would be easy to imagine .
Cat converter ,exhaust running right next to the fuel tank , fuel tank a few inches above the hot asphalt. 87 octane fuel ,
Do you think it will overheat ? do you think it will vapor lock ?  nope that old fat girl hauler will just keep going.
TL trucks get a ton more cool air around everything except AC up a short skirt :)


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Trophylite #6013
Dunarri
wildpowersports.com
wildscooterparts.com
coolermods.com
   

Sr. Member
****

Posts: 308
I think vapor lock can be an issue depending on the race conditions and fuel ran. But I think most of the TL fuel related issues come from a poor fuel system design/set up.
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 35
Are you sure you are not losing fuel pressure? These engines are very fuel pressure sensitive, we had what we thought was vapor lock, turned out to be the crappy black jazz fuel cell foam clogging the filter. Worst part was it only happened under long WOT conditions so it is very difficult to replicate under not race conditions. FYI we gravity feed the pump and run a return off the fuel rail.
   

Sr. Member
****

Posts: 308
Are you sure you are not losing fuel pressure? These engines are very fuel pressure sensitive, we had what we thought was vapor lock, turned out to be the crappy black jazz fuel cell foam clogging the filter. Worst part was it only happened under long WOT conditions so it is very difficult to replicate under not race conditions. FYI we gravity feed the pump and run a return off the fuel rail.
Good point Tommy! A differential of 2-5lbs of fuel pressure was the difference in doing a power brake and spinning the rear tires and doing a power brake and not spinning the rear tires in the Elite truck. You need to know what pressure the truck was tuned at in order to get optimum performance out of these hamster cages.
   

Full Member
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Posts: 163
Tony, how did you go about exiting the cell at the bottom?

FYI, i found fuel cell foam rated for alcohol......going to use that.

--John

...


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Trophylite #6013
Dunarri
wildpowersports.com
wildscooterparts.com
coolermods.com
   

Sr. Member
****

Posts: 308
Drilled two holes in the passenger side bottom of the tank(I believe they were .875). You want the bulkhead to almost thread into the tank(basically zero fit) and use a high quality gas resistant sealant on the washers. Drill the two holes in the steel can oversize so that there is plenty of room between the nuts and the can that way you can get a socket on them. Make sure that when you drill the holes that they are up high enough from the bottom of the cell so that when you tighten the jam nuts down the washer is OUTSIDE of the radius in the tank or they will leak! Here is the link to the bulk heads that we used, when I get home tonight I'll find the sealant and post up the part number.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-15686/overview/
   

Full Member
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Posts: 163
Thanks tony, the stuff ive always used to seal gasoline is that blue lock block or whatever its called from home depot.  It seems nothing affects the stuff.  Don't get it on your hands because there is nothing that will get it off!

--John


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Trophylite #6013
Dunarri
wildpowersports.com
wildscooterparts.com
coolermods.com
   

Full Member
***

Posts: 163
Tony, what size line are you running up to the fuel rail?  -8 or -6

--John




---------------------------
Trophylite #6013
Dunarri
wildpowersports.com
wildscooterparts.com
coolermods.com
   
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